Crypto and Blockchain: The Future of Finance | Daniel Eyre
Interested in taking a deep dive into the ins-and-outs of blockchain? Curious how crypto gets its value? Prepare to have all of your questions answered by Daniel Eyre, CEO of Blockchange. Tune in to find out the benefits of investing in cryptocurrency, the impact that holding a lot of bitcoin has on organizations, why finance and accounting should be thinking about the future of blockchain, and a whole lot more.
Daniel EyreCEO, Blockchange
Rowan Tonkin: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Being Planful. My name's Rowan Tonkin and I'm your host. Today, I have the pleasure of being joined by Dan Eyre. Dan is the CEO and founder of Blockchange. Welcome, Dan.
Dan Eyre: Thanks so much for having me, Rowan.
Rowan Tonkin: So, Dan, Blockchange, obviously an interesting name, obviously something to do with the blockchain. Why don't you tell us what Blockchange does and a little bit more about yourself?
Dan Eyre: Sure, happy to do that. You know, Blockchange is digital investment platform. And so, we focus on very specific digital assets. That's where the name comes from. We're alluding to blockchain, the technology, but the digital asset ecosystem is totally independent today of traditional assets. So when you're buying stocks and bonds and other assets on the traditional side, you're doing that through infrastructure that's been around for 30, 40, 50 years, maybe beyond in some cases. And this new age or this new paradigm of digital infrastructure requires its own platforms to really facilitate the same experience or, in many cases, a better experience. And all of that is being built today, and we're on the forefront of that. We build solutions for fiduciaries, advisors, asset managers, family offices, other types of firms that are looking to purchase these assets and manage them on behalf of their clients.
Rowan Tonkin: Awesome. Well, that sounds super exciting. The major premise for me asking you onto the show, Dan and I used to work together at another planning company, and Dan was our expert supply chain, and he's obviously moved on to some really interesting things. And as we think about FP& A, specifically, and planning, we're hearing a lot about organizations now wanting to hold cryptocurrencies, for example, the things that your platform allows people to buy, sell, and trade and manage. So first question, why would an organization want to hold cryptocurrency on their books?
Dan Eyre: Yes. It boils down to the investment thesis of Bitcoin or more broadly speaking crypto, because it's not just about Bitcoin today. But the investment thesis that's most prevalent today for corporate treasuries and why they would hold it on their balance sheet, is because they're seeing it as a hedge against inflation. They're looking at this monetary policy from governments around the world. It's not just in the United States. I mean, it's a pretty ubiquitous problem. That the money supply, in terms of supply and demand, and as it relates to the potential for massive inflation, it's not favorable. You're seeing a lot of additional money supply. The total money supply increased by over 30% since the start of the pandemic. I mean, it's going to have profound implications. It's not a secret to anybody. But the fact that there are alternatives. Historically, gold has been an alternative that treasuries and asset managers and fiduciaries have flocked to in cases where higher than normal inflation is expected. But there's some aspects of gold that make it, I would say, a little bit less desirable. Mainly, you can't pay for anything with gold, right? You can't say, " I'll trade you 10 gold bars for that." Nobody's going to be carting around 10 gold bars to pay for anything. But it does hold its value very well. The unique thing about Bitcoin and other crypto is that it's easily portable from one party to another party. So just as easily as you could send someone a transaction on Venmo, you're able to send value through crypto networks, very, very securely. In fact, it's the most secure database in the world, at least Bitcoin is at this point, but it retains or has shown that it has these characteristics of retaining this use case of store of value, unit of account. Really, a currency combined with that store of value thesis that gold historically has had. And that's made it very, very attractive, especially for companies that are tech forward, is that they can invest in these things. From a value perspective, they continue rising against the dollar. I mean, Bitcoin's history, just Bitcoin alone, we could talk about other assets as well, but Bitcoin has the return, I think, somewhere... 90000% over its lifetime since it started to be measured. It's very transparent as well, so very auditable. It's a misnomer that it's this anonymous thing. It's not anonymous. Everything is published on this ledger. It's very clear who owns what, especially if they've been through the KYC process, which is, for those that don't know is, know your customer, which entities go through that process when they acquire these assets. But it's something you can put on your balance sheet that is hedging against those issues as it relates to monetary policy. And that's what you see with the likes of Tesla and MicroStrategy and others.
Rowan Tonkin: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And so, for those companies that are making that hedge, but we've seen lots of volatility with something like the price of Bitcoin recently, right? How does that impact them from someone like MicroStrategy's holding a lot of Bitcoin, right? What's the impact for those organizations as they're holding that asset class?
Dan Eyre: Yeah. And this one's interesting, because a lot of the current accounting rules and regulation had no concept of something like crypto before it came along. So there are different schools of thought, I think, that are out there. And certainly rules are different between geographies and economies. We don't have the same rules here that they have in Europe versus Asia. And then, the even more localized rules are present across various countries or groups of nations. But in the US, crypto is accounted for as an intangible asset. You can think of it similarly to how you would account for a trademark or a patent. And the value is recorded at the cost basis at the time that you purchase the crypto, the Bitcoin, whatever. And the value doesn't rise until there's a taxable event. So when a taxable event occurs, let's say price rises and you sell it. Okay, there's a taxable event there, but the value on your books doesn't rise accordingly during that period, until that taxable event where there's a capital gain. Oddly here, if the value drops, the price of Bitcoin goes down, even if there isn't any taxable event, you need to write down an impairment charge against the assets that are on your books to reflect that drop in market value. Which is, it's not great. For a MicroStrategy who holds an enormous amount of Bitcoin, or even for Tesla. I mean, I think Tesla made more money off of their Bitcoin and lost more money over their Bitcoin than they made with any of the cars that they sell. It paints this picture of, we still don't have rules in place yet that are appropriate for this asset class, because it's so different, so fundamentally different. Nobody knows how to treat it yet. There are rules, they're just not optimized for it.
Rowan Tonkin: Interesting. So if some of our listeners, firstly, are mostly recovering accountants and have found their way into FP& A, thankfully for them. So let's just unpack a little bit, because you talked about, as you started the conversation about ledgers. So I'm reasonably educated, but as I understand it, the blockchain is simply a ledger of who owns what with the value. So as we think about FP& A teams, how should they be thinking about... I think this is secondary to how you hold and manage cryptocurrency on your books. But secondarily, how should they be thinking about the future of the blockchain and the impact that it has on maybe the accounting side of a finance organization?
Dan Eyre: Yeah. I mean, it's such a profound question with a very extensive answer that I won't bore everyone with it, but we can unpack certain pieces of that. It is really important to understand why this technology is going to change the world. Everybody says that about all technology, " Oh, AI's going to change the world," " The internet is going to change the world." And those technologies do, but I feel for blockchain and for cryptocurrencies and other crypto assets, it's less understood, because it's hard to understand just the core concept for a lot of people. So to unpack it, we'll start with Bitcoin, because it's the most easily accessible example of this. But Bitcoin is essentially, like what you said, it's a database about who owns what. Nobody owns Bitcoin. What you can do is obtain the right to move Bitcoin. So the network is basically a way for people to get permissions to move a certain amount. And in that sense, you're able to move a certain amount of value. And this ledger that's available to everyone of all the Bitcoins that's out for circulation, inaudible in, is public. Anybody can see it. You can't see the names of the people, but because everyone has a copy of the same ledger, if someone were to try to spend or move some crypto, some Bitcoin, that they didn't have the permission to move, then the network would reject that transaction, because everyone in the network knows who owns that from an entity perspective, even though they don't know their name. And so this paves the way... One thing you'll notice about this is it's pseudonymous. In some ways it's anonymous, but it's pseudonymous in the sense that even though you don't know who the other party is, you can transact with them in a way that if they meet the requirements, you don't need to know their name, you don't need to know who they are. And that creates what is being termed as a permission- less world. So if you, as an accountant or just in business, in general, if you were to transact with another corporation or another individual, right now, you need to know who that individual is to do it. You need to have trust, you might need to go through a vendor review process. And I'm not saying all of that is going to go away, but crypto gets into this world of where there's not a whole lot of work that you need to do to determine whether you can trust the party. And so, if I have, for example, we'll use an instance that is near and dear to me. You know I'm all about supply chain, you mentioned earlier. But a good example of where this comes into play from an automation perspective. If I'm sourcing goods from one corporation to another corporation, there's a whole chain of events that happens in between corporation A and corporation B, related to logistics, related to the production of the goods, the sourcing of the materials, everything all along the line. Today, there's no transparency into it, and there's also no understanding of what different entities are doing with those goods or any of the ancillary services associated with it. What the blockchain is going to enable is basically the tracking, where every step of the way there's total visibility into what's going on with those goods and, also, where they're moving from, where they're going to, whether they met certain quality thresholds. That transparency is going to be baked into corporations in the future. Right now, you have your ERP system where you're tracking all of this information, but it's your representation of that information. You're trusting that the other party, that's providing that data, is providing correct data. But in a model where we have these networks of corporations... Say, take the semiconductor industry as an example. When the semiconductor industry is sharing data, right now there's this massive delay in the time between when some corporation changes their demand plan or their supply plan, and when the other corporations that are in the value chain, when they get that information, there's this bull whip effect. Because there was that delay, you've ever either produced too much or too little. Whereas, with a blockchain- based infrastructure, it's almost like a shared ledger or a shared ERP between everyone, there's no delay there. So as things change, you're not over- producing or under- producing, you're more able to meet the demand in a very concise way. And that's going to create not just more efficiency, but just in terms of the scale of things, economies are going to start to open up and have a lot more by way of automation around accounting for data, moving data, planning around it. And that's why I think it's related to the planning world. It's critical to understand how this is going to impact that, because you need to be aligned with a world where you're sharing data and creating the rules around when that data gets shared, rather than thinking about, " Well, who am I going to provision access to my spreadsheet to?" Those days are numbered.
Rowan Tonkin: Yeah, that's really interesting. And specifically, as it then pertains around, as you think about entities like FP& A, their job is to help create strategies and plans for what the future may look like and help guide and navigate the business, right? Now if they have access to a shared ledger, for example, the accuracy of their planning process should therefore increase drastically?
Dan Eyre: Yes.
Rowan Tonkin: And therefore we get into a much more predictable view. And then, from the accounting perspective, we may be actually moving to a future, and who knows how governments will do this, where we just have a shared ledger, and that is the accounting process. Rather than having to do complicated SEC reporting, it could all be done on a shared ledger.
Dan Eyre: Definitely could get to that point. And I think you're right in highlighting that nobody knows how regulators are going to ultimately wind up approaching this, but it seems like there's a lot of steam- gathering. We talked about Bitcoin almost is like the gold proxy of the digital age, but there's this rising tide around the world of governments looking at using the same technology, the blockchain that Bitcoin runs on, to do something akin to what they've done with the Fiat system, which is a central bank digital currency. And these central bank digital currencies are basically, they're like private- ledger versions of the Bitcoin network. Although there are some issues from a security perspective, we don't need to get into that, versus Bitcoin, because it's not as decentralized. Not everyone has a copy of the ledger, not everyone can see what's happening. It's actually, frankly, it's a little bit more control than one would want to hand over, in my opinion, to completely over to the government, because money is power and it's used to run everything. But at the end of the day, it also lays the foundation for more automation around not just taxation, but also around defining various entities and how they can interact with one another in a legal and compliant way. Things that you couldn't codify before can now be codified. And to dig into that a little bit more, and what I mean by that, and this is very popular, for example, on the Ethereum blockchain. There are these things called smart contracts, and smart contracts are basically little snippets of code that you can write and publish to the network. That act is almost like Lego pieces that anybody on the network can use. So if you can imagine a future where you can build these little snippets of code and put these building blocks, these Lego blocks together, to do anything, you're winding up with... The world becomes much easier to navigate where you're able to put together a series of smart contracts that determine A, when a transaction can occur, how it should be accounted for, which agencies or which entities need to receive reporting on that, anything else that needs to happen as a follow- on transaction. For example, if you're shipping a good, what are the next things? Okay, well, we need to communicate that it needs to be picked up and all of those things, the entire chain, as you're able to build more of these rules and everyone's able to use them, there's less and less things that need to be built within each company. You just use the building blocks that are there. They're shared by the entire network. And so, that really lays this foundation for an automated future, where you're doing things once, and then everybody can use them and there's less and less all the running around that in corporations now. So many of them run on spreadsheets or planning software. And the planning software isn't going to go away, but the data sources that it uses to then generate these insights and set up these follow- on actions, it's going to be referring to those ledgers where all the smart contracts are actually facilitating the transactions themselves.
Rowan Tonkin: Yeah. And so, therefore, as we said earlier, it should therefore speed up and make the planning process much more predictable. An interesting use case I just thought of there was something as simple as a mutual NDA, right? You could put a mutual NDA on the Ethereum blockchain, and every SaaS company has a mutual NDA, and they all pretty much say the same thing with a couple of little variations. Well, now we can just all repurpose that same one and no one has to go out and pay any more lawyers any more money.
Dan Eyre: That's right. And actually, a really good example of that, I'm glad you brought that one up. DocuSign has been working on basically contracts and legal documents on the Ethereum blockchain for some time, because it is open source. Rowan, you could say, " I want to create a smart contract." It's totally open in such a way that if you had a use case, you could build it and publish it to the network, fully auditable so people know that it's secure. And you can really start at any point in the journey. The smart contracts that are out there that, of course, there's some garbage ones because it's so open. inaudible, right?
Rowan Tonkin: Yeah.
Dan Eyre: By that same token, I mean, you have massive corporations that are starting to build these rules from a smart contract perspective on the Ethereum blockchain. Even have banks that using it for settlement or building smart contracts as well. And then, you even have some governments. I think there's a European bank, not European Central Bank, European Investment Bank, that's using it to issue bonds, long- term bonds, on the Ethereum blockchain. This open source wave of technology, I mean, we saw open source play out with Linux and other computing architectures and everything, which is great. I mean, those communities have seen a lot of growth over the years, but this is the first wave of technology that by force is removing the gauntlet of control from governments and centralized authorities and it's distributing or decentralizing all of that to all the corporations and individuals that are participating. It creates a much more secure and robust system that I think we're going to reap a lot of benefits from this over the next several decades.
Rowan Tonkin: I think we could riff on that particular topic for a few more hours, I'm sure. But let's come back to our key audience here, finance professionals. And let's say someone's CEO comes to them and says, " Dan, I want you to hold some crypto, because I'm going to hedge against deflation." What do I need to go through? Obviously, I come to blockchains and that's where I buy my crypto, or I go to my bank and they come to you. But then, what's the impact on the company side? How should an FP& A leader or a finance leader be thinking about that particular challenge?
Dan Eyre: Mm- hmm( affirmative). Yeah. So, I mean, aside from the accounting of it that we were discussing earlier, there's a few aspects that you need to consider. So first, crypto today is classified as a digital commodity. It's property. It's not like stocks where it's a security, it's a very liquid piece of property. And so, when you look at acquiring Bitcoin, and then subsequently selling it, you don't have the same rules that apply with a security if you were... You wouldn't... to worry about things like... substitute products you would need to purchase if you're going to sell it and then try to buy it again later. There are no wash rules in crypto right now. Which means you can sell it and buy it again and realize the losses, the capital losses, to offset your capital gains elsewhere, which, obviously, is of interest depending on your business model. I mean, being able to offset capital gains can be great, especially with the volatile asset class. You might be able to realize a lot of benefit there. You buy it at peak, price drops, that might not be a bad thing for you, because it's going to probably rise again later, so you might want to carry those losses forward. So that's one thing to consider. But acquiring it just out of the gate, it's something that you need to approach the right way. And so, if I'm a corporation that's looking to buy some Bitcoin, we'll use that example again, I need to consider where I'm going to custody that Bitcoin as a corporation, manage my own wallet, and who's going to do that internally? Or am I going to go to another service, like a Gemini or a Coinbase or a Kraken, or any of them? And if I'm going to buy it through them and custody through them, where they're holding onto the assets and they're responsible for it, or am I going to utilize some multi- signature process where I'm custodying it, but it also requires some other entity to authorize the transaction for a movement of funds. So that the custody issue is one that really needs to be well- understood, because there is no reversing crypto transactions. So if someone who's not authorized to move the money somehow got ahold of the keys necessary to send a transaction or broadcast a transaction, once it happens, it's happened, you can't go back, and so, that the controls and the protocols around it are very important. That's why third- party custodians, like Gemini and Coinbase and other entities like that, that's why they're so popular, is because even though you can, for the first time in history, self- custody assets, people still want a party that is accountable at the end of the day in case something goes wrong. And so, you get this bifurcation based on whether you're an idealist or not. You do have some companies that are custodying their own crypto assets, because they know what they're doing and they feel comfortable with it. They got the right process and approvals in place. But the majority of these companies that are holding crypto on their balance sheet, they're holding them in a custodial account somewhere else. And they've got all the services around recovery, or insurance is a big one. If you're self-custodying your own crypto, no insurance. I mean, there's those consideration. Then, the last thing that I would say is you want to size it correctly. If you're a CFO and you're considering putting Bitcoin on your balance sheet and it's a hedge against inflation, but at the same time, it is very volatile. So you don't want to put a huge amount of what would normally be cash reserves in there. It is liquid, just as cash is. It can be, I mean, in a lot of cases, you can use it to pay for things. But if you were to use Bitcoin as your currency, you're looking at paying the capital gains on the assets that you're using to purchase with. So if I were to buy a cup of coffee with Bitcoin, aside from being an expensive cup of coffee, it's really going to be not ideal in the sense that I need to pay the capital gains in addition to the amount that the cup of coffee costs. So it's still not ideal for that use case to keep in reserves and use to pay for things. Really that stored value and hedge against inflation.
Rowan Tonkin: So you really have to pick your use case, whether you're going to be using it as a replacement to something like gold, which is just a value store versus a currency that you're going to transact with, for example.
Dan Eyre: That's right. You can pick between them. There are use cases where, on the payment side or on the transfer of value side, if I'm a corporation that needs to move$ 30 billion, think about trying to move that amount of money through the legacy, the banking system, SWIFT system that we've got today. You would be paying an arm and a leg. Move$ 30 billion? You're paying an enormous amount of money that's cutting out of that transferred amount. In the Bitcoin network, I mean, it's staggering when you think about how much more efficient it is. If you're moving$ 30 billion, you're paying maybe a thousand or$2, 000 in fees out of that total amount. You can move enormous amounts of money on the Bitcoin network, because the cost to move it doesn't scale with the amount of money. They're not taking a cut. The Bitcoin network isn't people, it's not a business. It runs in a programmatic way. So if you want to move money, it doesn't really matter how much money you're trying to move, it's going to facilitate that transaction the most efficient way possible. And so, if I'm a large corporation, especially financial services corporations that have remittances to worry about, large remittances, in a lot of cases, if I didn't have to worry about that the capital gains issue in paying for things, it would be the ideal network. And that's why you see central bank digital currencies picking up some steam is because it's so efficient and so much better than what we've got with our current system. Then it's attractive in nearly every way. It's also instantaneous settlement. So what would normally be spent with money in transit... A lot of people don't know this, but if you were going to send money to South America, for example, through Western Union, there's a lot of pre- funding going on. The money itself isn't moving. It's like an IOU between these different organizations. With crypto, it's the first time in history that the actual value is moving. And so, there's just a whole lot behind it, whole lot of efficiencies, both from a business perspective, but just also on the FP& A side of things, why it would be to CFOs in addition to everything I need, but also from a working capital perspective, because it's not in process. The settlement's instant.
Rowan Tonkin: Yeah. Which would really change the cash flow forecasting of your business, right? Think about your DPO, days payable outstanding. That would be an interesting change for a business, as you can instantly move money around between organizations.
Dan Eyre: Right.
Rowan Tonkin: Yeah, we've talked about what reason you would have to hold crypto, we've talked about some of the use cases there. We've talked a little bit about potentially the future of blockchain as it pertains to finance and accounting professionals, where we may have access to these shared ledgers, of ways of getting instantaneous information across networks, whether that's partnerships or whether that's supply chain organizations as part of our value chain. We've also talked a little bit about how do you hold and manage and what can you do with it. What about the future? What's next for an organization? And maybe you can hypothesize on what you think people like DocuSign are going to do, or what do you think Tesla and MicroStrategy will do? Because they're two very different use cases of crypto, right? One's a value store, and the other's actually using that to create value for an economy or for vendors, in fact, customers.
Dan Eyre: Yeah. The companies that are holding Bitcoin or crypto on their balance sheet, I think right now they're definitely setting themselves up for the case of substantial inflation. Which by the way, I think over the last year is 5. 4%. Is more than double what the target was, roughly two, 2.5%. So it's clearly, by all measures, so far it's not transitory, it's been getting worse since we've been in the gold standard all those years ago in the'70s. But at the end of the day, those companies are setting themselves up well in terms of capitalization, and then also, just ensuring that their wealth or their cash stores aren't dwindling. I think the future, from a crypto perspective, isn't just with Bitcoin or Ethereum or any of the assets that are out there today. I think they're the tip of the iceberg. The rest of the iceberg is in other projects in what's called tokenization. So a good example of, and a lot of people have heard this, there's something called a non- fungible token. And a non- fungible token, there was a famous one that was sold. I think it was the third most- expensive artwork ever sold in history by a living artist. It was an artist by the name of Beeple. And Beeple sold an artwork that was verified. The ownership of it, the title of the artwork, lived on the Ethereum blockchain, and it was sold for$ 69 million. And then Metakovan, the fund administrator, basically, on the other side that, bought that artwork then tokenized it. It turned it into something that they could sell shares of. And so, the reason that I'm emphasizing this world of tokenization is because the title or the deed to the building that you're working in, the title of your home, the ownership of the assets and property rights of anything in the world, whether tangible or intangible, intellectual property from a licensing perspective, if you're letting other corporations license your technology, they can buy shares of that intellectual property, essentially tokens of that intellectual property, that represent their right to then reproduce or use that technology in their value chain. This concept of tokenization, having this digital representation that is clearly verifiable of any good or service or asset, that's going to be the new standard of how things are accounted for. If you want to buy a piece of property or some equipment, and you need to account for it over a series of years in terms of depreciation or whatever, all of that stuff can be baked into the structure in the tokenomics of these tokens. But having that digital representation opens up this entire world for your books to contain everything. You're not going to be lumping things into a line item that just says miscellaneous or whatever, trying to have your own representation of it. It turns all of your assets and all of your services into, essentially, more liquid representations of themselves. And on the other side of it, there's a company by the name of tZERO. And tZERO is the first company to start offering a marketplace for essentially purchasing private securities, where they're fully liquid. So if you wanted to buy portion of the cap table for this$ 30 million company over here that hasn't gone public, but it's very promising or you want to enter into some partnership with them through that equity stake, those things are going to be possible. You're not going to need to worry about a company going public anymore. You can purchase a portion of their assets. It just opens up the entire world, whether it's private, public, everything becomes much more liquid and transparent.
Rowan Tonkin: For some, that's a scary proposition, for the world of accounting, for the world of finance. We've always had these categorizations and these ways of doing things. What do you perceive to be the main advantages for a finance professional in that new world? I won't ask you how far away that is, because whatever you say will be wrong. And so I won't put that on the record. But what do you see as the advantages for finance professionals as that tokenized world comes into play?
Dan Eyre: Yeah. We're coming to a convergence of technologies, more or less. Which is, for most industries historically, you didn't really have the need for technical expertise. Tools were built for individuals... were not technical, they weren't programmers or anything. In this tokenized world right now is very reliant on programmers and engineers. So all the use cases are centered around what they think is cool or what they think is useful in value add. But what I would say for finance and accounting professionals right now, is that there's this attractive notion of thinking about how they would build the rules around the tokenized future. This, right now, is the opportunity to actually contribute to building out the rules. Accounting and finance, very rules- based. I guess, you could argue that finance, a little bit more of an art, accounting, a little bit more of a science. But at the end of the day, there's going to be... Just like any other industry that's affected by automation, there's a period of time where there's an opportunity for those professionals to be a part of the solution. And then after that, you've missed that bus and your services become commoditized. And really, the only corporations that are utilizing that service of you doing things manually are ones that haven't made the migration to this new infrastructure. Now, you asked about how long is it going to take? A long time. It's not going to happen tomorrow. And you're right, I would never be right with anything that I said, but that's the phase, the opportunity we're in right now, is you can be a part of the group that's creating the rules, rather than one of the ones that's trying to adapt to those rules after they've been created.
Rowan Tonkin: Very interesting. Well, Dan, I think we could keep going on for hours, but I want to be respectful of your time. So this has been an amazing conversation. For those folks that want to get in contact with you, how should they do that?
Dan Eyre: You can visit our website at www. blockchange. ai, or send an email to marketing @ blockchange. ai. And just as a side note, we do have asset managers that utilize our platform, that purchase digital assets, Bitcoin, or others, on behalf of corporations. It's certainly is something that you could do and you can do it today. So if you are interested, welcome the contact. Please reach out.
Rowan Tonkin: Yeah. Well, thanks, Dan, it's been a pleasure to have you on the Being Planful podcast. I learnt a lot. I'm sure our listeners learnt a lot, and I'm sure there's lots to stew on as this world fast emerges.
Dan Eyre: Thanks so much for having me, Rowan.
Rowan Tonkin: Make sure you hit subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss an episode. Thanks for stopping by.